Update 9/12/2009: Much appreciation to James Wedding at www.civil3d.com for extending the Carlson VS Civil 3D discussion to his website. A lot of commentary and good discussion has taken place on both sites. I’ve just posted my response to the comments. Also, as noted at the end of my reply, I am working on setting up a very thorough Shootout between Carlson and Civil 3D. Invitations have been sent, so keep looking for updates.

www.civil3d.com Carlson VS Civil 3D Post

Latest Autodesk Discussion Group Post

Update 9/1/2009: Folks at www.civil3d.com have started a post comparing Carlson to Civil 3D. Link is here. James has a minor detail wrong about my background. As a sole-proprietor, I was never an Autodesk reseller, but I did work for a couple of them before going out on my own. I’ve posted that as a comment and thanked James for starting the thread but, as of a couple hours later, it is still telling me that “Your comment is awaiting moderation”.

Update: Not that the edits, so far, have changed the original Posts too much, but wanted to make everyone aware that the Moderator is revising some of the posts. Mostly, it makes me look like I don’t know grammar and don’t proofread very well.

An interesting discussion has been started on the Autodesk Discussion Group here:

http://discussion.autodesk.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=6243535#6243535

Harry Ward discusses the shootout between Carlson, Civil 3d and Bentley and several others discuss their experiences and compare their use of the products.

As someone quite entrenched in both disciplines (Civil and Architectural), I’ll add my 2 cents worth on the BIM vs. GIS subject.

In my opinion, BIM and GIS are both “methodologies” rather than “products”. The acronyms each have their own meaning and refer to designing, building, and managing information in a full life-cycle.

Each discipline has its own standards; from CAD standards to design standards (think of AIA vs. AASHTO), but both BIM and GIS rely on correct As-Built data to provide accurate information about their models.

BIM
The National BIM standard states the definition of BIM as:

“BIM is best thought of as a digital representation of physical and functional characteristics of a facility…and a shared knowledge resource for information about a facility forming a reliable basis for decisions during its life-cycle; defined as existing from earliest conception to demolition.”

Autodesk has taken the BIM acronym that has provided a great deal of success with their Architectural Modelling packages and applied it to their Civil products as well. Their logic appears to be that its a “3D” product, therefore it is a “BIM” product. I believe that it is irresponsible to change terminology to simply advance product sales.

On the Autodesk Web Site, Autodesk lists a number of products as being “BIM” products:

• Revit
• Navisworks
• Design Review
• AutoCAD LT
• + several more

With the acronym meaning Building Information Modelling (with building being a verb OR a noun), its interesting to see products such as AutoCAD LT and Design Review being shown on the list.

Revit
Revit is a Design Tool that allows the storage of certain pieces of information as well as the ability to add custom fields (heating capacity, cooling capacity, etc.) to the actual objects.

Navisworks
Navisworks integrates information from multiple data sources to provide a cohesive collection of information (graphics and data) to analyze things such as clash detection (HVAC duct work clashing with structural components, etc.).

AutoCAD LT
AutoCAD LT is Autodesk’s low-end design package. Apparently, any DWG file creation tool is now a BIM product as well.

Design Review
Design Review is a light-weight DWF viewer and markup tool. While it has been used as a backbone of products such as FMDesktop, its neither a Design tool, nor a Modelling tool.

FMDesktop
Absent from the list is FMDesktop. FMDesktop was one of Autodesk’s tools for managing the Building Information and Autodesk just dropped the product (Note: There are dozens of Facilities Managent Products available that provide similar capabilities such as FM:Systems, Archibus, Tririga, Manhattan, Cadapult, Famis, and more).

In the 2006 – 2007 time frame (when Autodesk acquired FMDesktop), Autodesk themselves showed customers Power Point slides regarding BIM. These slides showed where the “Design”, “Build”, and then “Operate and Manage” processes were performed. FMDesktop was Autodesk’s solution to tell the story of the building lifecycle and where the information was to be managed. These were broken down into 2 sections: The “Data Collection” piece and the FMDesktop piece.

Data Collection incorporated the Design (several disciplines such as Architects, MEP Systems Engineers, and Structural Engineers) as well as the majority of the Build process. The FMDesktop piece overlapped the Build process and then took over for the “Operate and Manage” process.

In my opinion, building that model of information AND managing that information is the true test of a “BIM” solution. There is no 1 product that is a “BIM” product. Its a series of technologies that are incorporated to provide the “information”.

Ultimately, a database component is required to work with the graphical representation of data (which certainly could be referred to as the “Building Model”).

GIS
GIS is BIM’s counterpart whereby Geographic (position on the planet) information is being stored and managed.

Most end users might think of GIS solutions as Google Maps or Google Earth where they can enter an address and out pops a graphic representation of that location or directions on how to get there. The graphic is just the tip of the iceberg. Without the data, the graphic would simply be a pretty picture.

Just as with BIM data, GIS data utilizes design tools to build the graphics and As-Built data and then tools to expand upon the As-Built information.

While there are a number of individual products on the market to assist in the creation, manipulation and distribution of GIS data, a complete GIS system involves more than 1 product or techonology.

A couple of the common Design Products are: Autodesk Civil 3D and Carlson Civil Suite

AutoCAD Civil 3D
Civil 3D is an object-oriented design tool for Civil Engineering applications. Because the tool is object oriented, the end product is not easily distributable. The data can be transferred to other links in the GIS solution chain by using technologies such as LandXML, but the graphical interaction is lost in this process (i.e. the objects are lost).

Carlson Civil Suite
Carlson’s Civil products work with DWG files in an AutoCAD or IntelliCAD DWG format. Because the data is stored as compatible DWG information with external data files, the data is easily transferred to other products in the GIS solution chain.

Managing the data developed in the design process is the next component of the GIS life-cycle. A number of products provide those solutions: ESRI ArcGIS, Vueworks, and Custom Mapguide Solutions.

ESRI ArcGIS
ESRI’s shp (shape) and adn (coverage) files are quite possibly the most prevalent GIS specific data files available and are often integrated in GIS solutions. ArcGIS allows GIS solutions to be deployed similar to FM solutions in the BIM world.

Vueworks
Vueworks is an organization that builds GIS and Work Management solutions using the ESRI base applications.

MapGuide
MapGuide is Autodesk’s development environment to build GIS applications. It is often used in concert with ESRI, Microstation and Autodesk data files.

GIS Standard
While there is not yet a concensus on a singular GIS standard, there are independent Spatial Data Standards employed by each digester of GIS data. You can view some of those here:

• Denver Colorodo Spatial Data Standard
• Oregon Spatial Data Standard
• Federal Geographic Data Committee

Both GIS and BIM perform very specific functions in accordance with their own disciplines. While the terminology is often mis-used, they refer to unique information systems; BIM in the structural facility world and GIS in the geographic world.

Several months have passed since I made my original post BIM This, BIM That… What is BIM?. In that time, I have asked a lot more questions, read a lot more on the internet and had a lot of discussions with Ladd and Felicia and also read the post by one of our commenters. I think I’ve developed a more concrete idea about BIM and how it applies, or doesn’t, to the civil/survey world and where the various software packages stand in regard to their “BIM-ability”.

Now, after all this additional information has percolated in my brain, I’m drawing two main conclusions:

1. It’s a fact that the term BIM as it’s always been used applies to actual BUILDINGS – the noun form of the word. But, more specifically, it  starts with construction drawings/design data but then incorporates the as-built data and, over time, continues to grow and collect data through the entire lifespan of the building.

Nothing in all this discussion of “BIM for Civil” gets beyond construction drawings and design data of a civil project. Autodesk is trying to stretch the definition of BIM to cover Civil 3D even though they never move beyond the design process with it either.

Remember, we do not talk about “BM” or Building Modeling. And, we don’t work with “GS” or Geographic Systems. The “I” is THE critical factor. And the “I”, or Information, piece of BIM is so valuable because it chronicles and helps manage the building through its lifespan.

To be able to legitimately call what we’re doing with our Civil programs “BIM”, we would need to have a mechanism to attach some sort of database or information to the objects in our drawings.

I know, I know… that’s why Civil 3D is so great – you can attach data to the objects. But, remember, we’re talking about attaching AS-BUILT data to these objects. Even though we could attach data using Carlson GIS or AutoCAD Map or ESRI, it’s simply not part of our current project scope to go back into our construction drawings and update them with as-built data so that:

• maintenance schedules are attached to roadway template surfaces based on asphalt type,
• model numbers are associated to pump stations or
• inspection reports and flow rates are attached to fire hydrant blocks.

My conclusion here is that neither of these products – Carlson nor Civil 3D – meet the true definition of a BIM for civil. Until we start addressing the Information piece for the lifetime of a project, starting with the as-built data, using the term BIM is wrong.

In my opinion, if anyone has the lead on this in the civil arena, it’s ESRI.

2. Just because we don’t yet attach as-built data to our objects doesn’t mean that the data we do attach to our objects isn’t valuable. But, leading to my 2nd conclusion, why is it valuable? It’s only valuable if it can be shared. And this is where I believe Carlson has the undisputed edge. The image below shows the number of formats and other programs that Carlson is able to import data from and export data to.

Carlson Software recently asked Felicia and me to present webinars on topics we have particular interest in or specialize in. 

Felicia’s webinar on BIM, GIS and Carlson Software can be viewed here: BIM, GIS and Carlson Software Webinar

My webinar on CAD Standards can be viewed here: CAD Standards for Carlson Software with AutoCAD or IntelliCAD

With the economy what it is and everyone trying to get as much bang for their buck as possible, I’m finding that online training for your CAD software programs is an increasingly popular and cost effective option.

Although this post describes my personal approach and may be different considering your trainer, hopefully it will answer some of your questions about online training and will encourage you to give it a try.

How does it work?
There are several online services that trainers may use for online training. WebEx, GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar are all very commonly used and popular. My preference is GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar as they have a very low footprint on your computer and are simple to use. When first entering an online meeting, a small installation of the program occurs allowing you to view and interact with the presenter’s computer.

GoToMeeting is smaller scale and better for personalized training. GoToWebinar can handle up to 1,000 “attendees” and is typically used for presentation or demonstration to a large group.

Some of the online meeting services are free, but most require a monthly fee. The fee is paid by the organizer who then has the ability to schedule meetings/webinars in advance or “Meet Now” for meetings on the fly. Your organizer will either email you a link to the meeting site or can tell you the link on the phone. Each meeting has a unique “Meeting ID” that you’ll enter at the main page.

GoToMeeting is typically used for standard training where more than one person may need to show their screen and/or be given control of the mouse and keyboard. This interaction can take place in a variety of ways. When in a meeting, anyone can be given (and must accept) the “Presenter” role which allows others to view their computer. And, even though the Presenter always has priority, control of the mouse movement and keyboard entry may be granted to others in the meeting. This allows someone else to work on my computer remotely.

The audio portion of the training usually takes place by calling in on a conference call line supplied by GoToMeeting. VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) is also available allowing you to use your computer’s speakers and microphone but it is not recommended because of quality.

GoToWebinar is used for larger scale demonstration and presentations and can accommodate up to 1,000 Attendees. Online Webinars are generally structured to have one or more Presenters making the presentation.

Like GoToMeeting, the audio portion of GoToWebinar usually takes place by calling in on a conference call line supplied by GoToWebinar. However, in a Webinar setting, the Attendees are muted automatically by the Presenter so that everyone isn’t blessed with the sound of crinkling potato chip bags and elevator music when someone puts the phone on hold. The Presenter has the ability to un-mute one or more Attendees as needed. The audio of all Attendees is managed by the Presenter by having each Attendee enter a unique “Audio PIN” upon arrival.

GoToWebinar has 2 ways to ask and respond to questions from Attendees. The Control Panel has a “Raise Your Hand” button that notifies the Presenter there is a question. Depending on time constraints, the Presenter may decide to un-mute and answer the question during the online session.  If there are more questions than can be answered during a session, the Organizer may ask that you type in questions in the “Questions Log” so that they may be addressed at a later time.

Pros and Cons 
I’ve put together what I consider to be the Pros and Cons of online training for CAD Software programs. Please pitch in and offer your comments.

Pros

• Can eliminate travel time and expenses
• Very cost effective option for customized one-on-one training
• Allows for personalized, absolutely customized training because it’s normally one on one.
• Can’t find a local trainer? No problem. Felicia Provencal can train you from Hawai’i – although you may want to go to her!
• Can be set up within minutes if there is a pressing technical support issue or project that suddenly comes up.
• Can be scheduled in shorter blocks of time – one of the best ways to make sure you retain what you are taught. I like to schedule 2 hours maximum per session.
• Shorter blocks of time allow for easy customization of training topics from one session to the next. If more time is needed on certain features, it’s easy to squeeze in another 2 hour session.
• It IS interactive!
• All sessions can be recorded and played back at your convenience for a refresher.

Cons

• Some people are more comfortable sitting beside and working directly with the trainer
• It’s less interactive than hands-on, in person training.
• For hands on training and depending on the material being covered, it may not work as well if you have several folks needing training at one time.
• Requires a high-speed connection and a telephone headset allowing two hands on keyboard. A speakerphone can be used as long as feedback doesn’t become an issue.

Real World Example
I recently worked with a client from out of state. He is a grading contractor who thought he needed Carlson TakeOff training but, after some discussion, realized training in basic CAD (IntelliCAD) needed to come first and then TakeOff training.

The initial proposal was for me to travel there and spend 3-4 days training this client plus a second person (a competitor, in this case) who needed the same training. Both of them decided to give online training a try.

We scheduled online training for every morning one week. I worked with one from 7:30 – 9:30 am and then with the other from 10:30 – 12:30 pm. After the 3rd day, we had covered so much material that one asked to skip the next day so he could work with it himself and apply what he’d learned so far.

We ended up skipping two days. By the time we met again, he’d worked with it enough and become so much more proficient with the basic CAD operation that we were able to fast-forward through the next couple sessions and started working on his current project. Another subsequent session was cancelled because the rain finally stopped!

And then a few days later, he needed to get his project finished and out to bid. So, after our first session one morning, we set up another session at 4:00 that afternoon and worked until almost 7:00 that evening.

Both customers ended up very happy with the amount of material we covered and where they were with the software when we wrapped up our regular training. They still have the video recordings of the training for their reference to go back to when needed. In the end, the cost was almost the exact same as it would have been had I fulfilled the original proposal but they both learned and retained much more because the training was customized and personalized to their specific jobs.

Those currently using Carlson with IntelliCAD are eligible for a new “GIS Starter Kit” from ESRI. The Kit includes:

• ArcGIS ArcView desktop software
• A copy of the book A to Z GIS: An Illustrated Dictionary of Geographic Information Systems
• A copy of GIS Tutorial: Workbook for ArcView 9, Third Edition
• A 10% discount for the ESRI Survey & Engineering GIS Summit ($325 – standard registration price)

To take advantage of the offer, call 1-800-GIS-XPRT (1-800-447-9778) and request the Carlson-IntelliCAD GIS Starter Kit and please have your Carlson Serial Number available.

You can read more about ESRI’s commitment to survey and engineering services by visiting http://www.ESRI.com/engineering.

 The ability to import and export to LandXML has been around for quite awhile, but I still get a lot of curious looks when I mention it in my training classes. So, what is it? And why should you be using it?

Why Should We Be Using It?

We’ve all become accustomed to saving archive copies of our drawings for various purposes but saving the corresponding project data is often overlooked. Retrieving the drawing file may allow you to recover proposed contours and profile grid, but the underlying “surface” is lost unless the project was also archived.

Importing and exporting using XML files is the most convenient way to convert, transfer and archive data created in Carlson Software, Land Desktop, Civil 3D, Eagle Point, TerraModel and, I’m sure, other programs.

But, What Is LandXML?

LandXML refers to a file format (.xml) containing data created in a civil/survey program. My recommendation is that ALL civil and survey data should be archived – progress, submittal and final archive – using LandXML.

The way I like to explain it is that we use XML files in the same way we used to rely on DXF files. They’re mostly outdated now, but DXF files are a generic file format that, for example, we used to convert MicroStation DGN files to AutoCAD DWG files. At that time, AutoCAD couldn’t read DGN files and Microstation couldn’t read DWG files; but both could read DXF files. So, we had to convert our drawing files to the generic DXF format that could then be read into the other program.

Similarly, Carlson Software, Land Desktop, Civil 3D and the other programs create their own unique files for civil/survey project data such as points, point groups, surfaces, centerlines, profiles, etc. When we have to pass that data onto someone using a different civil/survey program – it’s a nightmare!

That’s where LandXML files prove their value.

Exporting your civil/survey data to an XML file breaks it all down into, basically, a text file. Specifically, it’s an HTML file that can be viewed through a web browser such as Internet Explorer or Firefox. For instance, when a surface model (TIN) is exported to XML, the X, Y, Z values of each point on the TIN is assigned a number, and then each “face” (triangle) of the TIN is defined by specifying the 3 corners. See the examples below:

Note that one type of data that is currently not supported in XML files is typical cross-sections or template files.

Another benefit of using LandXML to transfer or archive project data is that any combination or all of your project data can be saved in a single XML file. This is valuable because exporting ALL of the data for a project can create a massive XML file.

Even if you archive your project data in its native format, you should consider additional archiving in XML format. No one knows what kind data files we’ll be using 10 or 20 years down the road so saving your data in such a generic, text-based format such as XML files allows for easier retrieval down the road.

If you are working in an IntelliCAD version of  Carlson Survey or Civil and need to bring in surface entities (contours) from a Civil 3D (C3D) or Land Desktop (LDT) drawing, it’s actually very easy to do. However, it’s not necessarily easy to find on your own. And, unfortunately, it’s in a slightly different place depending on whether you’re using the Carlson Survey or Civil menu.

FYI – If you simply try to “Open” a drawing that has AECC Contour Objects with an IntelliCAD-based program, it may look correct, but the entities will only be the dreaded “ACAD PROXY OBJECTS” that have bogus elevations. These are only good to look at… not work with.

Whether you’re using Survey or Civil, the only thing you’ll need is a drawing file (DWG) containing the C3D or LDT contours for the surface. It doesn’t even need to be opened, you just need to have it and be able to find it. (hey, I’m getting old!).

First, start a new drawing in Carlson.

Then, if you’re using Carlson Civil:

1. Go to the “Surface” menu,
2. Select  “Import/Export Surface”
3. Then, select “Convert LDT/Civil 3D Surface Drawing”.

If you’re using Carlson Survey:

1. Go to the “Surface” menu,
2. Select “Import/Export Surface Data”
3. Then, select “Convert Civil 3D Surface Drawing”.

Next, you’re prompted to “Select the LDT/Civil 3D Drawing to Read”. After browsing to and selecting the LDT or C3D file, pick “Open”.

Next, you’re prompted to to “Select Converted Drawing to Write”. This will be a new DWG file containing the converted data. After browsing to a new location and specifying a new file name, pick the “Save” button.

You’ll see the conversion process in the text window. Once finished, you can open the converted drawing.

What you will find in the new drawing are all of the entities from the original LDT/C3D drawing except that any AECC Contour Objects have been converted to elevated PLINEs and LINEs.

The first step you’ll probably want to take after opening the new drawing is to join together all of the contour PLINEs and LINEs. You may want to “Isolate” the layers for the contours first.

Then use the “Join Nearest” command under the “Edit” menu. Like most cases, make sure to have the “Join Only Common Elevations” and “Join Only Common Layers” options selected.

So, how cool is this? 

At the Carlson User Conference this week in Lexington, KY, Brent Jones of ESRI announced a new grant program in coordination with Carlson Software. The program will bring ESRI products to every IntelliCAD-based Carlson program.

Speaking with Brent on Tuesday, he said that a few of the details have yet to be worked out, but Carlson IntelliCAD users should be hearing details in about a month.

I’m going to post a LONG email stream between one of my clients, David Farina, Bruce Carlson and Dave Carlson. You can see the new feature that David requested and Bruce and Dave’s responses. David received a “development” version of the new features approximately a week after submitting this request.

I asked him for a statement describing his experience with Carlson:

Recently I found that the Time of Concentration input boxes were inadequate under the hydrology portion of Carlson Civil Suite so I emailed a description of the problem to them. I was very impressed to get a phone call the same day. They discussed the problem with me and had a revised program update to me in under a week. I’ve been emailing Autodesk for over a year on problems with Civil 3D and never heard a peep. Needless to say I’m very happy with the customer service I have received from Carlson thus far.

Here is the original question from David Farina on March 4, 2009:

Jennifer,

I was going through a mock project to learn the hydrology part of Carlson and noticed a critical deficiency in Time of Concentration input. The review agencies around here want to see the TR-55 method. First, the TR 55 minimum sheet flow needs to be 100’ instead of 300’. They recently changed it per the TR-55 Web site. Second, I don’t think I’ve ever had a project where you didn’t have to split one of these flow types into 2 or more mannings roughness areas.

For example:  a flow path that starts on dense grass for 50’ then passes over asphalt for 75’ and back to grass for 200’ would need to be calculated as follows:

 Sheet flow 50’ Grass ->  Sheet flow 50’ Asphalt -> Shallow Concentrated flow 25’ Paved -> Shallow Concentrated flow 200’ UnPaved.

But as you can see the Carlson input only allows for one entry per flow type.

 

 

 

Below is the Intellisolve version:  Notice the A, B C

 

 

 

There is a 5.1 minute difference in TC results which results in a 2 CFS difference in the 100yr example below: 

 

If the above example is that different then I am also concerned about how the Time to inlet is calculated in the example below:

 

 

Was the SCS method used to get the 7.1 min value? 

Notice the 7.5 value in the TC dialog to the right. 

This was the value if I SELECT FLOW LINE FROM SCREEN and pick the path that the dialog on the left generates.

Can I generate a report of how the time to inlet was calculated? 

Maybe there can be a button next to the Time to inlet to select TR-55

Maybe Mannings coefficients can also be put into the WATERSHED->DEFINE RUNOFF LAYERS to be used for this calc as the flow path passes through each polyline area the same way Carlson already calculates the composite CN.
 

 Will any of this matter if we get HydroCAD and link it to Carlson?  

Just food for thought.

 

Thank You,

 David Farina

Senior Designer

I forwarded David’s question onto Bruce Carlson, President of Carlson Software, and Dave Carlson, Director of Programming, and received this response from Bruce:

Folks:  Excellent input—this will find its way into the next release for sure.  We’ve spent a lot of time studying Haested and matching numbers there on pipe flows in culverts, for example, covering all conditions—but do need to put to bed Time of Concentration for approved defaults and sub-catchment conditions as they vary within a watershed area.  This Intellisolve example is really helpful.  Also, I took in input at Jennifer’s Statesville, NC presentation Dec. 2007 that mentioned the new 100’ default and also mentioned:

Using Q=CIA, there are new “rules” being published that using larger pipes or it may be larger drainage areas, there is an added multiplier in the form Q=CIA*Q1 where Q1 is a table of values.  I didn’t get the full details, but we need to research this.

And in storm sewer design, if we are compositing the calc of time to inlet using a “short-form” SCS-style method, based on percentage area of various land uses and associated runoff coefficients, we need to have a Report button that documents the results for full vetting and reporting out by users, and we need to incorporate an additional auto-calculated, long-form TR55 time of concentration there as well that uses sheet flow, channel flow and shallow concentrated flow.  One key in all this is to be able to auto-distinguish these flow types from the DTM and land uses and have the forms filled out with default values, which the user can change.  

 Question I’m curious about.  Say you built a gentle 6’wide, 1% slope swale with 6:1 side slopes, hardly noticeable, mowable, between lots in a subdivision.  Would the flow in that be treated as shallow concentrated flow or channel flow?  When would one condition end and another begin, by definition, so we can get real precise on auto-calculating these using layers/land use types and DTM values?

 Good stuff, and it will get done.

Bruce Carlson, PE

Pres., Carlson Software

David added the following:

I think when to use channel flow should be determined by the width of the bottom of the channel and hence how deep the channel gets on an 2yr storm 24 storm.

You could have a channel with 1:1 side slopes but if the bottom was 50’ wide and the flow path started in the channel then

the first 100’ would still be sheet flow in my book. Unless of course a huge amount of water was entering the channel from another basin.

I think the concentrated and channel flow times (being in the fraction of a minute range) are so small and have such a small impact on overall time

compared to sheet flow (fraction of an hour) that you could pick an arbitrary number like 5’ wide bottom and smaller is channel flow and not upset the model.

Sheet flow probably makes up 80 to 90 % of overall TC if it is over grass.

Anyone disagree?

Thank You

Dave Carlson sent this on March 11, 2009

Hi David,

Here’s an update to the Tc by TR-55 routine that allows unlimited number of breakouts. This update is for Carlson 2009 on Acad 2007-09. To install, unzip and copy the arx to the Carlson2009LSP folder. Let me know if you need a different version or have more suggestions.

For the Storm Sewer Network routine, I put it on the to-do list to add a Select button next to the Tc to show the components that make up the Tc like the Select button does for CN. Also we will looks at adding Manning’s n to the Define Runoff Layers for use with Tc calcs.

Thanks for the input.

Dave